Curse

Urfin · Jan 07, 2008, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Just got back from a long break from GW, and I'm seeing all the same "omg heroes can't use skills right" cries

Yep, some they can't (ok, alot), but those they can - they use wonderfully. It also has much more to do with the overall bar setup (energy cost and recharge times) than individual skill properties. Heroes excel at spamming and sometimes timing, and this is what should be used.

The following builds are all 100% autopilot, because microing your heroes, given their superior reaction times and spammage potential, is just counterproductive. So the idea is simple - get as much raw, mass and fail-safe damage with as short a delay, and for as long as possible. They also include a bit of damage mitigation or heal, mostly to survive the occasional ranger spike (which is about the only thing that I ever honestly lost casters to). I also don't always have [skill=text]Resurrection Signet[/skill] on heroes by default, because I rarely ever need it and I do like to use all 8 slots meaningfully, but it can be added if needed.

E/Me Napalm Death

A Searing Flames build, but optimized for spammage/energy - after all, you have 8 bar slots, not 3

. Inspiration for interrupts + e-management.

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Physical Resistance[/skill]

Fire Magic 12 + 3 + 1
Energy Storage 8 + 1
Inspiration Magic 10

Fire staff, 5 radiant insignias and 3 runes of attunement.

[skill=text]Liquid Flame[/skill] is there because it does more damage and costs less than [skill=text]Searing Flames[/skill], which, coupled with a 15 sec recharge provides a nice decrease in energy use over time while increasing damage.

I can't say heroes use [skill=text]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill] optimally, but they do, and with this bar it's worthwhile. [skill=text]Fire Attunement[/skill] they keep up at all times no problem. They don't generally use the interupts as e-management, but since this build doesn't usually have max max energy in combat, it doesn't matter. [skill=text]Physical Resistance[/skill] is there because it's in Inspiration and does the job of physical spike mitigation.

The overall effect of this build is, well, constant instant high-damage fast-casting AoE that doesn't scare mobs away and is synergistic with the average 2-5 second life time of a mob for me.

N/E Napalm Death

Same as the above Ele build, but tuned for the unstoppable energy source that the necro is.

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Armor of Mist[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Fire Magic 12
Soul Reaping 12 + 3 + 1
Water Magic 3

Fire staff, 5 radiant insignias and 4 runes of attunement.

Since we don't really need as much e-management as with an Ele thanks to Soul Reaping, we can drop Inspiration and [skill=text]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill], and add [skill=text]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill] as another nice instant nuke. Since we dropped Inspiration we'll have [skill=text]Armor of Mist[/skill] as physical protection - it's weak at this level of Air Magic, but we don't really need much here anyway, and it has a useful speed buff that helps escape melee gangbangs.

I'd say the resulting death machine is even better than an Ele with this build, despite lower Fire Magic, since it effectively has more damage because of [skill=text]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill] and less time wasted n e-management, and considerably more staying power in actual combat because of Soul Reaping. I'm definetly using this over Eles.

Ne/any Icy Minion

Again, an optimised for heroes build - no skills that the hero can't use relatively efficiently. The minion composition when in use is usually 6-7 fiends and 3-4 horrors. I like it this way because Fiends only is not energy efficient (remember the AI overspams animate skills, and we want autopilot), and they don't tackle melee enough. The loss in damage from not having full Fiends is not noticable, and the horrors are beneficial both in tackling, bleeding from jaggeds and better minion death cycle.

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Death Magic 12 + 3 + 1
Sould Reaping 12 + 2

Death staff, 1 bloodstained insignia, 4 minion master's insignias and 3 runes of attunement.

The elite here is always a murky choice, so I've spent alot of time testing all the Death Magic and Soul Reaping elites with hero MMs, and basically [skill=text]Icy Veins[/skill] seems best in this build (without EotN), even if the heroes don't use it optimally, they still do, and it's the best AoE damage in Death & Soul that can be reliably used by the AI. A close second is, surprisingly, [skill=text]Animate Flesh Golem[/skill], and this is what I will use coupled with Putrid Bile when I get EotN, since it's similar to IV and is not elite. [skill=text]Jagged Bones[/skill] I find lacking with heroes, because the AI recycles minions too much for it to be worthwhile, although it does provide a bit more staying power if you're in a prolonged fight.

As for minion bombing skills, [skill=text]Death Nova[/skill] sorta works, but they spam it way too much, at wrong targets, and more importantly, you have to switch it off when not in combat because the AI will spam it uselessly, trailing behind you when you move because of the long cast time. Minion death triggers like [skill=text]Feast for the Dead[/skill] and [skill=text]Putrid Flesh[/skill] they simply don't seem to use. A minion bomber build with [skill=text]Animate Bone Minions[/skill], [skill=text]Jagged Bones[/skill] and [skill=text]Death Nova[/skill] still sorta works, but doesn't look worthwhile. I'm close to getting Razah though, so we'll see if the Rt/N bomber will work better.

Mo/Me Boonalicious

Again, no astounding revelations here, only working stuff optimised for the AI's brand of madness. Great heal efficiency from [skill=text]Healer's Boon[/skill] + [skill=text]Ethereal Light[/skill], and not too draining on the energy, which makes it viable even with an MM in the party.

[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Orison of Healing[/skill][skill]Heal Party[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Physical Resistance[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

Healing Prayers 12 + 3 + 1
Divine Favor 9 + 1
Inspiration Magic 9

Healing Prayers staff, 5 radiant insignias and 3 runes of attunement.

One thing to keep in mind is that [skill=text]Resurrection Chant[/skill], while synergistic with [skill=text]Healer's Boon[/skill], is half-range, and people say that half-range skills make the AI keep closer to the action. I haven't noticed any difference really, they still move like drunk neutrinos.

To summarize, try using the MM and 2 searing necros as your heroes, and then try to find humans that would perform this well

Washi · Jan 07, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Ummmm. OK first I dunno why would you post SF build again... Seriously how many times was it posted already?

Only thing you changed is ... you added Physical resistance... LOL I wanna see your team getting owned by some ele boss. Hell with this skill and sup runes you will die from Any decent ele mob, like Ruby djinn or Ether.

And the monk bar is just bad, and again sup rune + physical res = gg

Unless the build is for easy normal mode areas... but you don't need builds for those, henchies will do better.

Squishy ftw · Jan 07, 2008, 08:31 AM // 08:31

That's a pretty normal SF build, with the exception of Physical Resistance ofcourse. I'd definitely replace that skill. Why 5 radiants + 3 attunement runes ? No ele with that skillbar should ever run low on energy unless he's fighting destroyers, in which case he's just being retarded.

The necro, well..ok.. but why Armor of mist ? and you spec 3 in air while armor of mist is a water skill?

IMO you're much better off putting a ward against melee on your SF ele/necro/whatever and drop all those Physical Resistances..

The MM necro build seems fine but I don't like that HB healer at all. It'll be just fine for NM but I think you'll have problems in HM with that. I'd make it a WoH Hybrid.

EDIT: Your heros also have a too low max health for my likings. Sup runes and no vigor of any kind is pretty risky imo.

Urfin · Jan 07, 2008, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Ummmm. OK first I dunno why would you post SF build again... Seriously how many times was it posted already?

If you're not interested in another SF build why'd you read it and even bother posting a reply?

Quote:

Only thing you changed is ... you added Physical resistance... LOL I wanna see your team getting owned by some ele boss. Hell with this skill and sup runes you will die from Any decent ele mob, like Ruby djinn or Ether.

No, they don't die, not even close. PR is there because I can't be bothered to micro for ranger spikes, and they use it fine on their own. It can also be switched off for ele mobs, though I've yet to feel the need. If you got a better suggestion for that particular problem, without changing the build much - be my guest.

Quote:

That's a pretty normal SF build, with the exception of Physical Resistance ofcourse. I'd definitely replace that skill. Why 5 radiants + 3 attunement runes ? No ele with that skillbar should ever run low on energy unless he's fighting destroyers, in which case he's just being retarded.

No human ele, sure. But AI spams, and I want him to spam as much as possible, with as little time as possible wasted on e-management. In a big fight he gets pretty low on energy.

Quote:

The necro, well..ok.. but why Armor of mist ? and you spec 3 in air while armor of mist is a water skill?

Typo, of course. Why not AoM? I dunno, maybe Armor of Earth would work better, it's rare that he even needs it.

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IMO you're much better off putting a ward against melee on your SF ele/necro/whatever and drop all those Physical Resistances..

Nope, because it's for ranger spikes.

Quote:

The MM necro build seems fine but I don't like that HB healer at all. It'll be just fine for NM but I think you'll have problems in HM with that. I'd make it a WoH Hybrid.

Could be. It's made more to work with MMs without draining himself at the most improper moment than to optimize healing power.

Quote:

Your heros also have a too low max health for my likings. Sup runes and no vigor of any kind is pretty risky imo.

Most builds/setups in most games are overtanked for my liking

Washi · Jan 07, 2008, 09:39 AM // 09:39

From your responces I see you dind't play any hard mode or elite areas. No vigor? Sup runes? Phisical res? You would die instantly in any difficult area. And wtf ranger spike? like... what?

If you need defence against phisical damage i suggest Aegis, or better yet - Paragon.

upier · Jan 07, 2008, 09:40 AM // 09:40

What ranger spikes are you referring to?
And you are aware that most of your problem could be solved by that Aegis, Defensive Anthem, Shadow Of Fear, Reckless Haste and Enfeebling Blood?

Let me guess - you're around Vabbi?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urfin

To summarize, try using the MM and 2 searing necros as your heroes, and then try to find humans that would perform this well

No need.
Because my cursing necro, para and a warrior hero (although being the love-child of Alesia and Zhed without a doubt!) perform better.

Edit:
And why the hell do I need to watch 3 million other things as I am typing replies ...

~ Dan ~ · Jan 07, 2008, 11:33 AM // 11:33

I think there is a reason ele's play SF, and not necro's..

Pyro maniac · Jan 07, 2008, 11:46 AM // 11:46

the monk bar is just bad ...

and for the necro, IV is good in area's without many corpses. Would prefer AotL in a normal area. Maybe even dual MM

Bassu · Jan 07, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Is it NM? If it is I think it's kindda pointless to post hero-setups, because NM is reeeeeaally easy, you can steamroll everything with SF.
But! If it works in HM, then good attempt - I'm gonna test them when I have some time.

Mickey · Jan 08, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

OH NOES RANGER SPIKE IN PVE OH NOES

Who the hell in PvE runs Ranger spike.........except for those stupid ass Kournan Rangers with Crossfire, and even then Aegis > Crossfire, or hell, even Reckless Haste > Crossfire. Idk what the whole Ranger Spike will kill me if I don't have PR is about.........and the SF build could use some more Res and/or Glyph Sac Nuke.

xDusT II · Jan 08, 2008, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mickey

OH NOES RANGER SPIKE IN PVE OH NOES

Who the hell in PvE runs Ranger spike.........except for those stupid ass Kournan Rangers with Crossfire, and even then Aegis > Crossfire, or hell, even Reckless Haste > Crossfire. Idk what the whole Ranger Spike will kill me if I don't have PR is about.........and the SF build could use some more Res and/or Glyph Sac Nuke.

There are a few areas in PvE where Rangers tend to target a single person and are capable of dishing out a fair amount of damage to the unprepared. Charr Seekers are one example, especially on Hard Mode, although when I'm expecting heavy ranged pressure I've always taken "Shields Up!" on a Paragon hero.

Physical Resistance isn't a bad stance to take on midline casters if your expecting a lot of melee. In other areas it quickly becomes outclassed by Aegis and Defensive Anthem though, which provide roughly the same damage reduction without the loss of elemental armor, which really is your main line of defence (other than interrupts) against elemental damage.

upier · Jan 08, 2008, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

I think there is a reason ele's play SF, and not necro's..

Actually in PvE there is like 0 to very little difference.
Both end up being sub-par.

Wakka · Jan 08, 2008, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I dont like the fact there's no prot

Mickey · Jan 08, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

There are a few areas in PvE where Rangers tend to target a single person and are capable of dishing out a fair amount of damage to the unprepared. Charr Seekers are one example, especially on Hard Mode, although when I'm expecting heavy ranged pressure I've always taken "Shields Up!" on a Paragon hero.

Physical Resistance isn't a bad stance to take on midline casters if your expecting a lot of melee. In other areas it quickly becomes outclassed by Aegis and Defensive Anthem though, which provide roughly the same damage reduction without the loss of elemental armor, which really is your main line of defence (other than interrupts) against elemental damage.

In my experience, hero's use it like crap, it's a crappy skill tbh, in most PvE areas at least, where you will be facing a range of elemental AND physical damage.

Teutonic Paladin · Jan 08, 2008, 05:47 PM // 17:47

The quality of these builds makes it obvious that you're playing in NM non-EotN/Elite areas. Maybe these will work, but there're tons of builds that work much better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urfin

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Glyph of Lesser Energy[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Physical Resistance[/skill]

Low damage, outdated, and has been seen a million times before. If you HAVE to use fire for some rediculous reason, take Mind Blast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urfin

[skill]Searing Flames[/skill][skill]Liquid Flame[/skill][skill]Rodgort's Invocation[/skill][skill]Glowing Gaze[/skill][skill]Fire Attunement[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Armor of Mist[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Even lower damage and huge energy problems. You're running an incredible amount of energy management that still probably won't meet the stupid cost of your skills. For fire, take Mind Blast, more damage (14-16 Fire) and better energy management.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urfin

Ne/any Icy Minion
[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Shambling Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

Taste of death is bad, heroes use it when they don't need it and don't use it when they do need it. Dark Bond won't be maintained constantly and isn't worth the spot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urfin

[skill]Healer's Boon[/skill][skill]Ethereal Light[/skill][skill]Orison of Healing[/skill][skill]Heal Party[/skill][skill]Power Drain[/skill][skill]Leech Signet[/skill][skill]Physical Resistance[/skill][skill]Resurrection Chant[/skill]

What is with you and shitty +armor skills? Healer's Boon is vastly inferior to a WoH Hybrid or N/Rt Healer.

Urfin · Jan 09, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Oook

These omgbbq flames of righteous fury got me testing alot, and the builds do suck indeed

Much to learn.

Ele's, ok, now I've remembered Ensigns's post on Ele vs Warrior, guess nothing changed much

However, besides the effectiveness of the builds as a whole I'm trying to find skills that heroes would use optimally and without micro, even if the skills themselves aren't the best, as most good human builds I know or seen recently work crap on heroes when you look at the usage closer. It's not even a problem of skills the heroes can't use right, those are easy to find, it's more a question of which ones and in which combos they'll use good, not just right. Minion skills, for example, or non-barrage damage rangers.

So while I seem to have lost sight of the larger picture with this minmaxing, the minion bar at least (except Dark Bond & Taste of Death, on which I tend to agree, but what's the alternative?) is overall used about optimally by heroes. No?

Washi · Jan 09, 2008, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Heroes are great as Minion Bombers, they are in fact better than any human could ever be, cause they know which minions are gonna die and their reaction time is godlike. That is why they use [skill=text]Jagged bones[/skill] so well.

Also heroes are awesome interrupters (in terms of reaction time, cause they do not care what skills they interrupt), so [skill=text]Magebane Shot[/skill] rangers and mesmers are a good idea.

You can ofcourse look into so called Sab's Build witch is necro trio (curse, minion bomber, resto /rt), they do the job for you in most of the areas.